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Mikey 14778
Poke It With A Stick
1631 Posts |
 Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 9:43:52 PM
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I'm a club post holder Richard (although not a very important one), and I seem to be contributing. There's nothing to stop anyone in any post from posting their thoughts regarding most of this topic if they want to, they just have to be careful that they don't breach committee confidentiality by trotting out something from one of the meetings.
As for the start gizmo, I'll cost it up, but I'm not convinced about Trial by Forum. That sort of thing is what the committees are there for, particularly as they know how much is in the kitty and what other expenses are expected etc. |
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robbersdog
Drenched
1427 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 9:57:45 PM
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RE: Committee members commenting here, I think the decision was made a while ago that this would not be used as a direct line to the committee. Committee members can and do post on the forums but it has to be said that they do do a lot for the club as it is, and being expected to watch the forum 24/7 is above and beyond. So, we may well get a committee member's opinion here or we may not, but there should be no suggestion that they're dragging their feet by not being here!
As for the forum forming club policy, it may work for smaller clubs were a larger percentage of the membership can be expected to be found online. Draycote has a membership of 700 or so, and only a tiny percentage are found here (I won't even go into the suitability of those who are found here to be making decisions that affect us all!) :o) On top of all this there's the the chance of the people here agreeing with one another, which seems to be rapidly approaching zero!
This forum is a good place to kick ideas around and get the gist of feelings about things. For example, I suggested Saturdays for asymmetric racing so that the asy. guys could have as much room as they want and the freedom to set races and course as they like. It was meant as a positive. I didn't expect Iain's response that it was non-inclusive and trying to get rid of them. That wasn't how it was meant at all, but now I realise how it could be seen that way. My thoughts were just that there are at least two distinct groups at draycote when it comes to racing, those who like two or three races a day of a good length in big fleets. There are also those who would like lots of shorter races on different courses. I personally would like a mix of the two, I enjoy both for different reasons. I just don't think you could do both at the same time from the same boat on the same lake. At least I don't think you could do both well.
This is a great place for ideas. I think the one positive to come out of the thread so far is that the idea of W/L racing and integration of new fleets is a good one, we just can't seem to agree on how to do it. We'll keep thrashing it out I'm sure, but let's not forget that we're all pretty much in agreement over the big picture, we're just trying to figure out the details.
Talking of details, Mikey, unless the club has done something seriously wrong in the last few years there's plenty of money in the pot. Surely a device to make ODing easier is worth spending a few quid on. You have my support for what it's worth!
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Chris Smith
Flying Fifteen 797
Sailing Photos
http://www.sushidesign.net/
http://www.gs-illustration.co.uk/ |
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Iain
Drenched
1537 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 10:17:56 PM
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Chris
I don't think I said that anyone was trying to get rid of WL sailors, just merely that as paid up members they have just as much right to expect proper racing to be available on a Sunday the same as any other format of racing, and in turn to be expected to roll up their sleeves and assist with the running of said racing.
Mike, I think that if you went straight for every Sunday W/L racing it would not be well attended enough to make it worth the effort. yes, you would end up splitting the lake up for the sake of a few boats and that is not sensible.
The facts are that current tradtional classes do very much outnumber asymms, we see few new people starting to race (a hunch, nothing to back this up) and a serious shortage of young (or old!) talent being attracted into club racing, and the whole "club" social/events/committee/ODing thing that is supposed to make us a club not a leisure centre. Hence me saying do it once a month on a Sunday, make sure we have good ODs on (or a separate boat/course), and really try to make an effort to get the asymm fleet out. If it's once a month, it has far more chance of success, it's a sensible use of the water, it can work round open meetings, and who knows you may attract some new members into the tradtional fleets for the other 3 weekends of the month.
Looking at other clubs, seeing them race, looking at what and where people sail on the various forums, it really does seem that we are being left behind in terms of building fleets of newer classes and attracting new members to the club who want to come and club race, with the exception of the Fireball Super Series and the 29er racing...both of which dissapear for the summer anyway.
LED thing sounds interesting...is it just a countdown, or is it giving more info, ie LED "flags" and next start?
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Mikey 14778
Poke It With A Stick
1631 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 11:02:15 PM
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Personally I would avoid splitting the water if at all possible Iain. I don't want to emulate Grafham necessarily, but they've got more water than us and they still run W-L from the same start and with the same beat as the RTC racing. If you rely on needing more people, more committee boats, more lake etc then there's too many things to go wrong. We know it can be integrated, cos we've done it.
The LED thing: I was thinking LED 'flags' and 'next start' number, and maybe the course as well. Not a trivial exercise. |
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Simon Fox
Wet
298 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2010 : 11:43:23 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Remby1968
Some very good points there Iain, very well made, especially about technology but as the club has been without wind data for some time now, further technology advancements may be just a step too far!
I thought I was on my own on this one (my post on 'DWSC Weather Station'), but reading the dire stuff about making racing (sailing) more fun, windsurfing has a lot to be recommended, and is, of course, more fun when it is windy.
Simon |
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robbersdog
Drenched
1427 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 08:13:17 AM
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quote:
and is, of course, more fun when it is windy.
Of course.
Iain, I know that Sunday has become a traditional sailing day, but I really don't see wy it couldn't be Saturday. What do you do on Saturday at the moment that you couldn't do on Sunday if the days were reversed? It's just a tradition, and we are talking about integrating a non-traditional group of boats!
I like the idea of a once a month thing as a compromise. I think the club could change, the handicap racing seems to be doing well so hopefully so will the W/L stuff. I really do think the club should be doing this.
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Chris Smith
Flying Fifteen 797
Sailing Photos
http://www.sushidesign.net/
http://www.gs-illustration.co.uk/ |
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stumcb
Damp
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 08:47:32 AM
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firstly remember i am not as informed as some of my peers nor can i spend as much time writing such weel constructed aguments.
you are all approaching this as sailors not from a marketing point of veiw.
if this topic is solely about racing fine. but if it is about how to attract new members it definatly sucks.
W/L RTC it makes no difference to me, and i suspect most of the contributers here would still race if a child of 5 drew the course on an etchasketch, grumble and hope for better next week
i would like to see more pursuit races, short course racing, and training for adults. thats because i am unlikely to catch up with the F/h fleet sailing a supernova as a novice.
look at the number of courses / taster day that were done last year. how many new members came to the club from outside the sport. If you can sail and want big water your choice is limited locally. Those people will already be members. i went to loads of the friday sessions last autum and did the 2 day improver course but i havn't seen many of the others from those courses at the club.
there is a huge leap from RYA2 to get to racing in the fleet. however if someone sitting at his desk today thinks oh i fancy trying sailing then they spend £300 learning. if they then go onto buy all the kit they need and join the club its another £400 at least. this is the area you need to address.
give one rib over to short novice courses on sunday. get peolpe who have not enough confidence to race out on the water, give them the coaching. then when they are ready they will filter into the fleets.
as for W/L or RTC the answer i think is to give the OD more freedom to set the course. that way if this weeks OD like his racing W/L that what he will set and the RTC fans better sort the OD for the next week. that way the keenest sailors will set the course. not perfect i know but i doudt you will find a solution that keeps everyone happy all the time.
www.claridgeswarwick.co.uk
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Mikey 14778
Poke It With A Stick
1631 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:17:16 AM
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W/L RTC it makes no difference to me, and i suspect most of the contributers here would still race if a child of 5 drew the course on an etchasketch, grumble and hope for better next week
Yes, I'm sure they would. But do that for long enough and they'd vote with their feet.
quote:
there is a huge leap from RYA2 to get to racing in the fleet. however if someone sitting at his desk today thinks oh i fancy trying sailing then they spend £300 learning. if they then go onto buy all the kit they need and join the club its another £400 at least. this is the area you need to address.
Also true, although you can day-sail and hire the boat and the gear from the club.
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as for W/L or RTC the answer i think is to give the OD more freedom to set the course. that way if this weeks OD like his racing W/L that what he will set and the RTC fans better sort the OD for the next week. that way the keenest sailors will set the course. not perfect i know but i doudt you will find a solution that keeps everyone happy all the time.
Aagh, no, that's just guaranteed to upset a load of people. For one thing, the OD already has total freedom over what course to set. The OD doesn't set W/L because (a) He/she almost certainly sails a RTC boat so it doesn't occur to him/her that W/L is even an option and, if they did consider it, (b) because there's only about 3 boats out today that would enjoy a W/L course and about 40 that wouldn't.
But it's not rocket science to run both at once and keep everybody happy, it's just incrementally a bit more complicated than the alternative.
What this really boils down to is the rationalisation of two different approaches to running a sailing club. The 'realist' approach says that club racing is run by the members for the members, so you'll get the sort of racing that the majority of members expect. So there's no W/L course because there's only a couple of boats that would appreciate it. And there's only a couple of boats that would appreciate it because we don't do it.
The 'marketing and planning' approach says that you have to invest some of your assets into building up W/L racing even if it is of minimal interest to the current lot, so you'll have something good in the next 5 years or so. But you've got to do this without alienating your core membership, because if they decide to walk then you're scr*wed. |
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MikeHall
Damp
109 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:19:08 AM
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Quick not to Stu,
Two years ago, I was in exactly the same position as you. I went to a Supernova open meeting having pottered about in it on the river for a few days and got completely thrashed and was lapped by most of the field, including one Richard Le Mare who, having never sailed the boat before, borrowed one of his Dad’s and came in third in the first race.
With a lot of help from Richard, Tim and some of the Supernova fleet nationally, especially past and current champions Richard Pakes and Mike Gibson, I got to the point where I could match the leaders upwind at the Nationals six months later.
Anna Griffin is planning some more short course racing, there has been a bit of a lull because most of the Y&J members that took part are in various RYA squads and a number of people, including myself, are doing a RYA race coach course in a couple of weeks with the intention of offering more coaching into racing for those who, like me a couple of years ago, need to make the transition from pottering to racing.
I will be up at the club all weekend as my son is doing a Zone Squad training weekend there, so if you want to come up, I’d be happy to pass on some of what I have learnt. Also, there is a very friendly circuit and if you want to get good at the boat, it is worth going to a few open meetings. Newcomers are very welcome and the fleet tends to give them a bit of extra space and lots of encouragement. See http://www.supernova.org for details. Tim and I normally attend around ten events per year.
Mike |
Edited by - MikeHall on 03 Mar 2010 09:41:30 AM |
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MikeHall
Damp
109 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:33:40 AM
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And a quick note to Mike, please don't be so dismissive of well-meant suggestions, especially the light hearted ones. I don’t think that Stu was really suggesting that race courses should be designed by five year olds on an etch-a-sketch. You put an awful lot into the club, but some of your posts here are liable to be taken the wrong way.
Stu is a new member finding it difficult to see a way forward, and we should listen to what he says carefully.
Mike
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Edited by - MikeHall on 03 Mar 2010 09:35:29 AM |
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MikeHall
Damp
109 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:37:29 AM
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And a note to everyone.
Many thanks for all of your replies. Unfortunately I have to do some work now, but I'll try to respond on the main topic a little later.
Mike
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stumcb
Damp
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:40:34 AM
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as i said only an "outside" opinion.
yes mike anything that helps, lots of practice but i know i will need some coaching or tips in order to progress at the speed i want, and as i said in a previous post i have been very lucky to have got help and advice from loads at the club and have seen it in its best light.
friendly competitivness on the water with lots of help around the boat park. But then i was confident enough to step into a fireball or an RS300 with only RYA2 experience and i don't think that is always the case. in fact if iain, tom and chris hadn't invited me for a pint on one friday i would still be sat at home on sundays,
my coments are more suitable to a discusion on new members and is possible diluting the posts here about serious racing. and that is what i was trying to say. i don't have the knowledge to comment on how the racing should be run. however if you solved it tomorrow i don't think you would increase numbers that dramically without addressing getting novice sailors educated enough to race in the first place.
p.s. i love the nova it is a fantastic boat and i can't wait to be good enough to sail in a an open meeting. also looking forward to another go in a rs300 once i have improved a bit more.
www.claridgeswarwick.co.uk
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stumcb
Damp
195 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 09:48:37 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by MikeHall
Stu is a new member finding it difficult to see a way forward, and we should listen to what he says carefully.
Mike
No, i know i am addicted.....
i know what i want to do - spend more time sailing and sail better
i have also learnt not to take anything on this forum seriously.
you don't have to persuade me - i have already paid my membership fees!!
www.claridgeswarwick.co.uk
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Edited by - stumcb on 03 Mar 2010 09:50:54 AM |
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robbersdog
Drenched
1427 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 11:05:31 AM
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quote:
there is a huge leap from RYA2 to get to racing in the fleet. however if someone sitting at his desk today thinks oh i fancy trying sailing then they spend £300 learning. if they then go onto buy all the kit they need and join the club its another £400 at least. this is the area you need to address.
give one rib over to short novice courses on sunday. get peolpe who have not enough confidence to race out on the water, give them the coaching. then when they are ready they will filter into the fleets.
This is one of the big arguments for having set fleets. The fleet structure and support provided by the likes of the fireball and miracle fleets is what is great to get people racing. If you come off a level 2 course, buy a miracle and turn up on a sunday in the summer you will be met by friendly faces, enthusiasm and helpful advice. However, if you have a boat which suits you perfectly but there aren't any others at the club then you won't get that fleet support and you'll find racing hard to get into. Should the club dot friendly faces around the boatpark on the off chance of someone turning up with a different boat? Actually this has improved a lot in the last year or two with some great people in the handicap fleet who are the friendly faces you'll see if you do have something a little different. I still don't think there's quite the same sense of belonging you get with the Fireball or Miracle fleets, but it's getting there.
The club used to hold 'try a boat' days for people just off the level two course. Representatives from each fleet would be there to take out people in their boats. People could see what boats were around at the club and have a go and meet the fleets. This introduction was all that was needed to give people access to the support structure inherent to the fleets. Rather than creating a whole new course and giving lots of time to coach people through it you just need one day and a BBQ and it's job done. If you're going to organise an event I think a 'get to know the club' event would be better than a 'this is how you race' course. Once people make the connections the rest will follow. Friends will be made, help will be given and fun will be had.
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Chris Smith
Flying Fifteen 797
Sailing Photos
http://www.sushidesign.net/
http://www.gs-illustration.co.uk/ |
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Mikey 14778
Poke It With A Stick
1631 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2010 : 11:54:15 AM
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Spot on Mr Dog, perfectly put.
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give one rib over to short novice courses on sunday. get peolpe who have not enough confidence to race out on the water, give them the coaching.
Can I just add that the Y&J fleet run short course racing for beginners on Saturdays with a RIB (OK, soapdish) which all looks almost exactly like what Stu was asking for there. And Adam does something similar with club boats on Saturdays too. Some of it may have shut up shop for the winter, but it will all surely be running again by April. |
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Racing at Draycote
